This is a continuation of an ongoing discussion with an individual who responded to an ad I placed on Facebook. We’ll start with his question in bold, followed by my response.

…you put a lot of faith in the “written word” and “eyewitness testimony.” My understanding is the Pentateuch/Torah was written by priests and or scribes during the first temple period and after the Babylonian exile; from 2 or 3 written documents and oral histories in or around the 530’s BC. That’s some 900 or so years after Moses, whom is credited with writing it. I don’t think we have those 2 or three documents. And oral histories are known to have errors.

Eyewitness testimony is some of the worse evidence. It isn’t used unless it can be verified by other evidence. And it is the cause, among other thing for some 10-15 percent of the wrongful convictions that have taken place in our justice system. The human mind/brain is notorious for filling in blanks with wrong and even made up information. One of the training tools in police academy 101 is to have a class interrupted by someone rushing in and doing something and the rushing out; and then having students describe what just happened (that was my first introduction to how the brain works). Anyway, there is no other verification to go to in the Bible, except for other verses and interpretation….

Genesis begins with the creation of the cosmos, earth and humans; which is dated back to 6-9 thousand years by Biblical accounts. Adam and Eve the first humans had sons who were a herder and crop grower. Cain kills his brother and worries that he will be a fugitive. His son is a city builder. All of that is civilization. Left out is thousands of years of human hunter-gatherers. The indigenous people of the Americas (Clovis people and Paleo Indians) arrived some 12 to 15 thousand years ago (depending on who you believe or what archeological site you choose). Moses is dated to around 1393 BC. Noah to around 2705BC. Caral in Peru was built in or about 2600 BC. We have indigenous people living and building a pyramid and city about the time of Noah. Humans began growing crops (farming) around 9500BC, They became herdsmen about 7,000BC; but they first domesticated the wolf/dog about 13,000BC.

The Biblical flood that covered the earth. The Arctic ice has been there for some 120 thousand years. The Antarctic cap has been there some 15-30 million years (ice core samples). I could write a paper on the Ark and flood, but I’ll not, unless you ask for it.

In 2008 the remains of a male hunter-gather was found in Siberia. Human DNA was extracted from the left femur. The find was dated to around 45,000 years ago. (several dating methods placed it between 43,000 and 47,000. Human DNA has also been sequenced from human remains dating from 5,000 and 8,000 years ago. The DNA and fosses records indicate man has not changed much in thousands of years. The oldest known human lived to be 122 years old. Yet the Bible has people living for 300 to 900 years. Nine hundred months I can accept (75 years, which would be a long life 3500 years ago).

So we have a a couple of choices. Toss out all the sciences that cause issues with biblical stories or admit that some stories are not historical facts. Despite the sciences that altered some of my previous beliefs, I still accept the core beliefs in a divine creator.

Good to hear from you, sir. Thank you for your kind words regarding my presentation, and thank you again for taking the time to watch it and to continue to interact with me about it.

The (Un)Reliability of Eyewitnesses

I’ve seen examples of the kind of classroom demonstrations to demonstrate the frailty of human recollection, particularly pertaining to transient, traumatic, and short-lived events. But as you know, this is why we cross-examine eyewitnesses in a courtroom. When you take the testimonies (written depositions, if you will) of multiple individuals and compare them to one another and they agree, there are a few conclusions we might be able to draw:

1. if their stories are too similar, there might be cause to suspect collusion;

2. if the stories contradict one another, one or more witnesses may be either lying or misremembering; but

3. if the stories are uniquely told, agree in their essential details, and show no evidence of dishonesty, then it would seem reasonable to trust—or at least seriously consider—that what the witnesses say is true.

A classroom of students who have a hard time coming up with a cohesive story is one thing, but 40 some-odd authors from all walks of life, who wrote over the span of 1,500 years in three languages on three different continents, most of whom were not contemporaries (much less co-conspirators) writing a cohesive and consistent story is a horse of an entirely different color. Add to that that the Bible has never been under the control of a single entity or editor to ensure that all the stories line-up, and you have a very compelling case for believing it (at least initially). Then there are all of the archaeological digs in the “sandbox” that continually reinforce what the Bible says…the case for the Bible just gets stronger and stronger. Voddie Baucham (whose quote is the cornerstone of the presentation you recently watched) talks about this in his presentation “Why I Choose to Believe the Bible.”

The Documentary Hypothesis (JEDP)

I believe that your comments regarding the authorship of the Torah are referring to the “documentary hypothesis” (aka. JEDP, which got a boost in popularity thanks to books like The DaVinci Code). To borrow your last sentence in your first paragraph, “there is no other verification [of this hypothesis], except for the interpretation of a collection of liberal scholars.” It’s incredibly speculative, and there is no manuscript evidence that supports the thesis. Have you read much that directly counters the JEDP hypothesis? (Hint: try Googling “case against jedp”)

Dating Archaeological Finds

Archaeological dating is a thorny problem—relative dating between two events or people groups is sometimes possible, but absolute dating is complicated by a number of factors. Entire books have been written on this topic alone, so this isn’t really an appropriate medium for that kind of discussion—we could attempt to talk about specific dates of particular peoples or events, but I fear that would be a rather tedious discussion, and since I’m not expert on the topic, while I’m sure it would be educational I think it would also be a very time-consuming endeavor. But what I will say is that much secular historical dating of mankind’s activities seems to be centered, or leans very heavily, upon Egyptian chronologies, particularly the work of Manetho, whose work is problematic. If you’re up for it, consider reading Doesn’t Egyptian Chronology Prove That the Bible Is Unreliable? which discusses some of the issues surrounding this fascinating topic. In sum, dating archaeological finds (whether biological or mineral) is not as cut-and-dried as some might believe. All dating methods make assumptions (e.g. decay rates, initial ratios of parent/daughter elements, no contamination, to name some of the bigger assumptions). Again, that’s a big topic that’s arguably way out of scope for this medium.

Something just occurred to me. You started off by talking about the unreliability of contemporary eyewitness testimony, but then wrap up by standing on a foundation of forensic analysis. Is it really reasonable to presume that an investigator, who is multiplied millennia removed from the events which he is investigating (not to mention culturally removed), is going to come closer to the truth than those who wrote about it back when it happened?

Fallible Man vs. Infallible God

Lastly, you offered two options: “Toss out all the sciences that cause issues with biblical stories or admit that some stories are not historical facts.” Remember the story you started with about the frailties of human reasoning and recollection? Let’s say we’re at a boxing match and the contestants are in their corners. The announcer comes out and says, “In this corner, we have men—who forget stuff, get things wrong over and over and over again, have biases, are fickle, at times dishonest, corruptible, but yet think they’ve got it all figured out…that is until someone smarter comes along and proves them wrong.”

He then turns to the other corner and roars, “Annnnnnd in this corner, Yahweh—the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—the creator of all that is seen and unseen, perfect in glory, perfect in wisdom, eternal, immutable, incorruptible, infallible, and sovereign. Even His foolishness is wiser than man’s wisdom!”

If you were a betting man, where would you put your money in this fight? Man gets it wrong almost as much as he gets things right, so why is it that our knee-jerk reaction when man and God butt heads is to throw the Bible under the bus?